6 February 1997

eigram:hello
eigram:where is scotto?
eigram:hi
bacameron:aum*
jonl:ommmmm
jonl:scotto won't be here til the hour.
bacameron:hey jonl
jonl:6pm pst.
jonl:how ya doin!
bacameron:doing great! Remember me?
jonl:Not sure??!!
bacameron:Austin New Years last year?
bacameron:yippi
jonl:At Sterling's?
bacameron:was that the name of that bed & breakfast?
jonl:No, I was thinking NY Eve party at Bruce Sterling's...!
jonl:You really gotta refresh my memory, I can see that...
jonl:Was it 96?
bacameron:I don't really remember meeting you, but I stayed at Paco's place for a few days around that time. 95 - 96 NY
bacameron:I thought I might have met you briefly. Your name is certainly familiar
jonl:Ah. Well, fact is, I haven't seen Paco in a long time.
bacameron:Don't you play in some band?
jonl:We used to be partners in a business called FringeWare, INc.
bacameron:Dissintegration Network or something?
bacameron:not partners anymore?
jonl:Ah. That's Monte.
bacameron:Oh, I met him.
jonl:Monte McCarter, DisNet.
jonl:We're not partners anymore, I left the biz a couple years ago.
bacameron:gotcha.
jonl:I got all wrapped up in writing and doing stuff like this.
jonl:How 'bout you?
jonl:Where do you live?
bacameron:I live in Chicago and hang out with Scotto
bacameron:have hung out
jonl:Did he tell you about the chat? Or did you see it somewhere?
bacameron:I read about it on a mailing list
jonl:(I posted to a couple of newsgroups but wasnt sure it filtered out)
jonl:Ah, kool.
jonl:I'm glad the word got out.
bacameron:you'd expect it to get out to the leri list, anyway. :)
jonl:Definitely.
bacameron:that's actually where I initially met him
bacameron:and besides that I play in a band here in Chicago.
jonl:Paco was on the leri list, and I subbed for a while.
jonl:That's how I made the connection.
bacameron:yeah, Paco is a neat fellow. I can't remember his girlfriend's name. Could you remind me?
jonl:Scotto has been a contributing editor for Fringe Ware Review from early on.
jonl:Not sure.
bacameron:yeah he's been an editor for fw longer than I have known him.
jonl:I haven't seen him in a whie, nd he's between girlfriends.
jonl:Yeah, we took turns editing the zine, and had other folks edit, too.
jonl:It was fun.
bacameron:it is a fun magazine. I think her name was Amy. This would have been last nye, ofcourse.
jonl:I last spoke with Paco about this time last year, at South by Southwest.
jonl:It seems there was a girl with him, but not his girlfriend. But I'm not sure.
jonl:What brought you to Austin?
bacameron:oh well, I was telling a friend a story about them and was embarrased that I had forgotten her name. That's why I asked.
bacameron:Leri New Years 96
jonl:Ah, kool.
bacameron:it was a lot of fun.
bacameron:We stayed new years eve at some bed & breakfast called something like "Babbs". About an hours drive away from Austin. Was fabulous! Lots of drumming!
jonl:I was at a party across town.
bacameron:Paco was there with us
jonl:You were at the Dabbs House in Llano!
bacameron:really!
jonl:I think so.
bacameron:right! it rocked!
jonl:It's sort of a B&B.
bacameron:I came to the Fw store while I was in Austin and bought a brain machine
bacameron::)
jonl:And sort of a hotel.
bacameron:yeah, we didn't get much sleep!
jonl:I had a brain machine but was missing one of the components.
jonl:A brain.
jonl:heh
bacameron:a brain?
bacameron:or the machine?
jonl:chuckle.
jonl:Actually I have a couple of 'em.
bacameron:brains?
jonl:machines.
bacameron:right. brain machines!
jonl:God forbid I should ever get a second brain.
jonl:The first one is high maintenance as it is.
bacameron:half the price!
bacameron:I'm listening to a tape that my band just put together last week. We're called the sheep fiends. Scotto's actually on the tape.
jonl:I saw Sheep Fiend pages on the web!
bacameron:that's me!
jonl:...while I was looking for leri info...
jonl:Great!
jonl:I'd like to hear you sometime.
jonl:You should play Austin.
jonl:South by Southwest.
bacameron:drop the sheep fiends web page an e - mail and send me your snail mail and I'll mail you a tape or two.
jonl:Great, thanks! I'll do that.
bacameron:do you think you could book us a show there?
bacameron:we're going to have a camping - out jam in the woods in July!
jonl:I'm not sure I have the right contacts, but I might be able to raise consciousness with some people so that word would reach the right folx.
jonl:In the woods here?
bacameron:in the woods here. About an hour west of Chicago.
jonl:What're the woods like therre?
bacameron:yeah, if you could get something set up for us I could get people motivated to travel there. :) bacameron:a little flat, lots of trees, a house every few miles.
bacameron:a pavillion with electricity for the amps
jonl:South by Southwest is a good venue, but it doesn't pay. It does give exposure, tho.
jonl:Hi, Scotto!
Scotto Moore:greetings
bacameron:we wouldn't care about pay, we'd just need a definate place to play
bacameron:hey scotto
jonl:Glad you made it okay.
jonl:We're talking about Sheep Fiends.
Scotto Moore:took me a while, but I seem to have found it
bacameron:scotto you should come to the camping SF jam in July
Scotto Moore:hey brian - I gathered sheep fiends was in the air :)
jonl:Sorry, it's kind of a technical feat to get here sometimes.
jonl:Theyu're making it better.
Scotto Moore:that'll be hard to do, yippi, I have to save money to get to jer and susie's wedding
bacameron:well let Darin know...
bacameron:Kyra too
jonl:I'll be right back.
bacameron:it's also a long drive, yes, I know. :)
bacameron:i'd appreciate it if you could let them know for me, though. :)
bacameron:i've been a non - smoker now for 11 days.
Scotto Moore:i will
Scotto Moore:congrats! I've been working on nonsmoking for a couple weeks as well
jonl:I'm back
bacameron:keep with it brother
jonl:What kinda music to Sheep Fiends play?
bacameron:(putting phone next to speaker)
jonl:heh
aroberts1:boo
Scotto Moore:greetings aron
bacameron:the sheep fiends sound like ringo star, jimmy hendrix, and a few other people if they were in an airport lobby drunk on gin and somebody asked them to play Sgt. Peppers. Besides for ringo everyone would probably tell him to blow. That's what we sound like.
jonl:Sounds GREAT!
jonl:Hey, tell me how this comes thru:
jonl:Gray: "Metaprogramming is becoming aware that you have been programmed already. That your beliefs and values are simply ideas that have been programmed into your brain and nervous system. It is taking charge of and RE - programming yourself! A most excellent experience."
jonl:Readable?
Scotto Moore:yes that's readable
bacameron:we have sound files (wav) on the web page
jonl:Great. Sometimes larger paste bombs get fried in translation.
bacameron:yes, readible
jonl:We start officially in a couple of minutes.
jonl:I'm waiting to see someone from HotWired. They make a transcript.
Scotto Moore:good, I was going to ask you about this
Scotto Moore:transcript business.
bacameron:hey aron
jonl:The transcript is where we really get exposure. You might have one or two dozen show up for the chat, but the transcript is read by many more.
jonl:As you know. *8 - )
Scotto Moore:heh
Scotto Moore:but there's no one here to do it?
aroberts1:heya brian
jonl:Not yet.
bacameron:wouldn't it be cool if the chat room just became like a turkish bath house crossed with Doom. Are we going to be a virtual community in the here and now. I dunno.
jonl:According to my watch, we're not quite there yet.
aroberts1:i have 5 till
bacameron:3 more minutes. Houstin to ground control
jonl:I think I can probably scroll back and capture the text, if nobody else shows.
jonl:But there's always someone here.
jonl:Hey, I've been doing this for a year this month!
jonl:Just occurred to me.
aroberts1:i was gonna send out an email to everyone here to tune in but that registration process is a drag bacameron:how does this chatroom work. Is scotto going to give a lecture and everyone else is going to be quiet?
jonl:Not at all.
Scotto Moore:fat chance :)
jonl:We just jam.
bacameron:or are we all just chatting for a hour?
jonl:I ask questions, but you can ask questions, too.
bacameron:hopefully nobody will get lost!
jonl:We even get hecklers sometime, but you can squelch 'em.
Blake Williams:I have a question, can you tell me how to get on the metaprogrammer's mailing list. bacameron:sorry, but ixay
jonl:ixay? pig latin for yix?
jonl:Blake, I think that was ixnay.
Blake Williams:or pig latin for xi???
Blake Williams:ah.
jonl:They won't even tell me how to get back on... *8 - )
bacameron:Those dots you see at the edge of your vision, they are rips in the curtain of reality. if you were to enter the folds of that curtain you'd find caves, and then to travel inside around a corner would be a gnome with a lighter going flick flick flick flick flick


jonl:Welcome to the Electronic Frontiers Forum...our guest tonight is Scotto Moore of Leri - l, the metaprogrammers' email list.
jonl:From the leri - l FAQ:
jonl:Gray: "Metaprogramming is becoming aware that you have been programmed already. That your beliefs and values are simply ideas that have been programmed into your brain and nervous system. It is taking charge of and RE - programming yourself! A most excellent experience."
jonl:scotto, how long has the leri - l list been in existence?
Scotto Moore:our five year anniversary comes up this march.
bacameron:what is the day?
jonl:And how did it start?
Scotto Moore:i think it's march 9, brian, when the original post went out to various usenet sites.
bacameron:to alt.drugs?
Scotto Moore:what I remember is that free agent .rez and I discovered LSD and the Internet at roughly the same time, and decided to see if there was any synergy between the two.
jonl:Was there? * - )
Scotto Moore:we sent notes to various locations, and got significant response back from the alt.drugs crowd, which at that point hadn't yet fragmented into alt.every.single.variation.you.can.think.of.
Scotto Moore:turned out that there were quite a few people who were willing to take the general psychedelic discussion a lot further than alt.drugs was doing at the time.
jonl:And leri=Commodore Leri=Timothy Leary?
monkey23:and the eight circuits of the brain?
Scotto Moore:yes, the Leri reference is to an essay Leary wrote during his prison years, where he imagined himself as Commodore Leri from the DogStar, imprisoned for his strange beliefs.
jonl:Psychedelic experience isn't really drug dependent, is it?
Scotto Moore:well, we can split hairs all night; I'm firmly in the camp that the term 'psychedelic' is inherently drug related. but, *metaprogramming* isn't at all drug dependent.
bacameron:i disagree, I find yoga very psychedelic, for example
Scotto Moore:so our explorations over the last five years have expanded significantly; psychedelics are a very small part of what holds our community together now.
Scotto Moore:i'm not interested in genericizing the term 'psychedelic' in that fashion, yippi. that's just me.
Scotto Moore:monkey mentioned the eight circuits of the brain... is there a question, dude?
jonl:psych lineage = "to show," deli from same roots as 'deity'..."to show God"
monkey23:nah just wondering about the reference and your opinion of the split between the terrestial and extraterrestial circuits...
bacameron:how does gilligans island fit in with the 8 circuit model?
Scotto Moore:well my opinion of the split in the model is that for the most part, it's apparent that there's some kind of "other" level reality which doesn't fit standard psychological models.
Scotto Moore:these experiences get lumped into the category "mystical" if they get recognized at all.
Scotto Moore:Leary took an interesting step in trying to qualify and categorize those experiences.
Scotto Moore:Leri takes interesting steps all the time trying to *have* those experiences.
Scotto Moore:that's just my opinion, of course. :)
jonl:Hope that came thru, mostly.
jonl:Definition of psychedelic.
monkey23:although I am all for blasting off this rock, I think leary's infatuation with smi2le colored his work of the time. I think all 8 can apply equally well to an earth bound intelligence
Scotto Moore:yeah, I saw that. seems to have similar connotations to "entheogenic," but popular usage definitely carves a difference.
jonl:Many folks who've done psychedelics use the experience as a gateway to other non - drug - related disciplines...
jonl:It sure as hell blasts you through the gate, no?
Dan97:When we speak of consciouness - expanding, are we speaking of drug use of cyberspace use?
jonl:But let's talk about leri - l as a community...
jonl:both
Dan97:As a mode of expansion?
jonl:Ah, I see that mguess is here...hello, Michael!
mguess:Hola, hombre!
jonl:scotto, tell us how leri - l evolved from email list to community...?
Scotto Moore:well, we seem to have taken the natural steps that any online group has to take in order to evolve. we began fleshmeeting in our first year, and those experiences were definitely wild and hard to describe.
Scotto Moore:there's an intensity involved in meeting close friends for the first time that most people can relate to these days, and we quickly transformed that activity into metaprogramming experiences, both on the individual and community level.
jonl:ecstatic?
Scotto Moore:yeah, you could definitely say that.
Scotto Moore:a friend of ours was throwing parties every major pagan holiday, and one of our first *big* fleshmeets was in celebration of Halloween, back in 1992 I think.
Blake Williams:what is an example of metaprogramming on the community level?
bacameron:i've found a good word to be dionysian, I'm sure I mispelled that
Scotto Moore:identity is already in flux thanks to the costumes, the online identities are thrown into the mix, and everyone meets for the first time... quite a wild time.
jonl:No, that spelling's correct.
Scotto Moore:that's an interesting question, blake.
Dan97:scotto, what was the host, the vehicle for the mind expansion?
scratchy*:is this the intellectual room?
bacameron:the aliens?
Scotto Moore:we've found over the years that one of the primary topics which cycles through the mailing list over and over again is Leri.ITSELF, that is to say, the nature of the phenomenon which surrounds the memetic attractor that IS Leri. if that's not too convoluted.
jonl:scratchy: we're aliens here. live with it. *8 - )
Scotto Moore:Dan: the context itself becomes the vehicle, but there are several questions as to who is steering it. :)
Dan97:Obtuse, scotto.
scratchy*:jonl: I'm an alien too, so I don't have a problem with all of you.
jonl:Welcome!
bacameron:vehicle = vessel?
jonl:So leri focuses on leri.
Scotto Moore:maybe, dan, you should clarify what you mean by "host."
scratchy*:this is my first time on the net. I'm using my brother's computer while he's in the shower.
aroberts1:we like to talk about ourselves a lot too so it works out
jonl:Communities are often defined as much by their conflicts than their affinities. Was that true of Leri? bacameron:it beats math jokes!
Dan97:Ok, how do you achieve the consciouness expanding effect, as a result of what experiences?
dcj - e:hmmmm
Scotto Moore:yes, I think that's safe to say, jonl.
Dan97:Surely, not by e - mail alone.
bacameron:and don't call me Shirley..
Scotto Moore:regular fleshmeeting of people from around the country and around the globe seems to be the primary vehicle, dan.
mguess:What of the phenom where cybers fleshmeet finally only to disappoint or distort?
Scotto Moore:email and IRC are strong supplements.
aroberts1:i have a #leri irc window open even now
dcj - e:lots of people wind up living together, as well.
Scotto Moore:that's a natural phenom, mguess, and after years of doing it, it's not really an issue any more. Scotto Moore:my expectations have changed.
Dan97:Please clarify scotto, I'm a bit in the dark, I flesh meet with my coworkers, and my mind implodes not expands. bacameron:whats going on?
dcj - e:heh, me too. Hiya aron, scotto
Scotto Moore:depends on your context, Dan. leri are not "coworkers" in that sense. they are an eclectic, self - selected bunch who have definite approaches to "what's going on(TM)".
aroberts1:just got off of the phone with another leri... we are a tight knit goup
jonl:plate o' shrimp: I was just writing that 'context is the thing'
jonl:Maybe we'd get a better sense of the context if you could describe a typical Leri fleshmeet, if there is such a thing.
Dan97:Ok, but can you tell me what does "Leri" mean, where did the name come from?
Dan97:Good idea jonl.
Scotto Moore:right, as mentioned earlier, Leri refers to Commodore Leri, a character assumed by Tim Leary in an essay he wrote while in prison, imagining himself to be an alien from the DogStar.
Scotto Moore:sure, jonl.
Scotto Moore:i can describe for you, for example, one of the new year's celebrations I've attended.
jonl:cool! Scotto Moore:these tend to be huge gatherings by and large, but this one was smaller for us, as we couldn't make the enormous gathering in knoxville.
Scotto Moore:this was small but intense, up in seattle, a number of folks came up from san francisco.
dcj - e:define "huge"
Dan97:Ok, now I getting clearer, the host might be psychedellic compounds used in quasi religious ritual?
Scotto Moore:well, huge for us usually refers to 30 or more of us gathered at once. probably not as huge as it could be, but hey.
Dan97:As describe in Leri and Alpers revision of the Tebetan Book of the Dead?
Scotto Moore:quasi religious ritual: I've been a big proponent of ritual exploration ever since I attended a sweat lodge ceremony a while back.
Dan97:Sorry, that's Alpert, I believe.
Scotto Moore:i've never tried Leary/Alpert's tibetan thing, because I'm not interested in focusing on death to that degree.
mguess:Ritual can be a great focusing device
Scotto Moore:but I do see lots and lots of value in exploring ritual sacred spaces. that's a personal thing, for sure. I won't speak for Leri on that one, we're too diverse to use the term "religious".
dcj - e:I'd suggest waiting until you're dying, myself
jonl:The Tibetan thing is not about focusing on death, necessarily.
jonl:But preparing.
bacameron:religious is just a word people can't agree on.
Dan97:True jonl.
bacameron:sacred is a beter word
Scotto Moore:that's definitely one of the cool things about Leri. I know hard core materialists and severe atheists and christians and chaos magicians and artists and all sorts of folks, all trying to define reality together. it produces interesting results.
Dan97:I'm trying to locate ground zero, a place for common understanding.
jonl:Preparing is part but not all.
jonl:Reality is in the defining.
Blake Williams:Tim Leary's Book of the Dead seemed to be about metaprogramming... the death of a specific psychic person, not the physical body. A way for metaprogramming oneself.
Scotto Moore:the use of "death" as the overriding metaphor, to my mind, overwhelms the issue of "metaprogramming." ymmv.
Scotto Moore:but if there is a ground zero, dan, it's in metaprogramming as a general level concept, versus any specific tools for doing so.
jonl:In Buddhism death and suffering are acknowledged but not eaten. Not sure what Leary's take was...certain that it was different at the end, tho.
jonl:scotto, have you done sensory deprivation?
jonl:flotation tanks, that sort of thing?
Scotto Moore:not yet. I've wanted to for a while, but haven't gotten around to it.
mguess:scotto, have you utilized neurolinguistics as a tool for metaprogramming?
monkey23:from the day we are born, neurolinguistics are constantly programming us....
Scotto Moore:nope. I've heard *lots* about it, but haven't gotten into it. my primary tool at the moment is art. Blake Williams:yeah. I had assumed that Leary liked the tibetan book's technique but not for physicality, but as a metaphor, and in using much of its theory (albeit mutated) he kept the title and original words (now somewhat intimidating as metaphors)
eltuercas:jonl
jonl:eltuercas?
mguess:What about mind machines as a meta - tool?
Blake Williams:Robert Anton Wilson will be appearing in L.A. this summer, with NLP.
Dan97:Opine on this: What use of cyberspace, electronic connections between strange spirits through modem, in mind expanding, in virtual community.
mguess:What do you mean "with NLP"?
Scotto Moore:i've found mind machines to be cool and limiting at the same time
Blake Williams:neurolinguistic programming
Blake Williams:what is a mind machine?
monkey23:Anyone else ever attend one of RAW's role - playing games?
mguess:I know what NLP is, I'm certified in it.
jonl:how are the mind machines limiting?
mguess:I know what NLP is. Just want to know what you meant by "with"
Dan97:Who's RAW, sounds interesting?
monkey23:Robert Anton Wilson
Dan97:Thanx.
Blake Williams:not me. is that a therapeutic role - playing game, or a rules - based game (e.g. Vampire, Ars Magica, D&D...)
Blake Williams:mguess, he will be lecturing with a member of the NLP professional speakers... I didn't pay attention to the NLP speaker's name.
Scotto Moore:the 'space' in which a virtual community exists seems to be entirely hallucinatory in nature. it depends upon the consensual hallucinations of the members to exist. in that respect, it's also a space which can only exist in that fashion...
mguess:One way to use mind machines is as a programming device ala NLP (which I've successfully done) w/ prepared tapes & sessions
Scotto Moore:(my lines got chopped into Blake's)
mguess:Thanx, Blake
jonl:scotto: how are mind machines limiting?
jonl:That was kinda provocative.
dcj - e:jonl: yes, I know it';s about preparing, but for most of us, it's a while to go.
dcj - e:jo...
dcj - e:......
Blake Williams:mguess, by prepared tapes is that the NLP commercially available tapes, or tapes you have prepared yourself, or something else entirely?
mguess:I've been certified in NLP so I prepare my own tapes & design my own sessions
Dan97:It seems to me that cyberspace is not space at all, only time.
Scotto Moore:jonl: I haven't done any of the session style work that mguess has, so it seems that I've not had a chance to fully explore the things.
jonl:Yeah, but I was just wondering how you felt the limitation, in your experience.
mguess:Admittedly, most folks don't get much beyond the 'ge3e whiz' part of flashing lights/sound
jonl:Heh.
Blake Williams:mguess, sounds cool. I've only listened to the commercial tapes. That I did in a very conscious and Western - thinking frame of mind. are the sessions you talk about using different states: e.g. alpha state, theta...
Dan97:Where do you get in on these lights and all in real space?
mguess:Cut & paste using software that lets you pick states. Then record the cassette (vocie, sounds) separately jonl:Michael: which machine are you using?
jonl:lately, that is.
mguess:NovaPro
Dan97:Where do you buy a NovaPro.
mguess:Tools for Exploration. They've got a web page
Blake Williams:mguess, could you give some of the long - term results of your NLP experiences from NovaPro. jonl:Can you describe how simple light and sound technology works to facilitate mind expansion?
Dan97:I'll do a word search on Excite and see what turns up.
mguess:Long term, no. Short term...perhaps
mguess:Entrainment is the key. No more or less than hypnosis
Dan97:Dig, I live in LA, so I went to a William Burroghs exhibit at the county art museum. There was a "Dream Machine" kinda thing, lights and all, very hypnotic, interensting.
jonl:scotto and mguess, both: I'm wondering if we can determine a link: hypnosis, psychedelics, mind - manifestation, community?
mguess:As I said earlier, focusing is a powerful tool
Blake Williams:mguess, I'm thinking in terms of months. Some expectations of self - metaprogramming through metaprogramming might be a greater sensitivity to one's condition, and a greater empathy for fellow spirits. Blake Williams:oops, I meant self - metaprogramming through "meditation" not "through metaprogramming" mguess:Deep change is a subtle thing, Blake. It's best taken gradually. I work on specific areas one at a time yara:i'm not sure putting some goggles on or dropping a few hits exactly builds a community
Scotto Moore:what kind of community could conceivably evolve via hypnosis, psychedlics, mind - manifestation? is that what you're asking?
jonl:Sort of, yes.
Dan97:A hippie community.
jonl:Or how the four are self - reinforcing...
Scotto Moore:one of the recurring themes within the Leri.ITSELF thread is "does a community mind accompany this phenomenon, and how do we describe it?"
mguess:Jung postulated a global type of consciousness, as did Tiehard de Chardin. So, it's not new jonl:though hypnosis should be changed to 'focusing' or 'entrainment' jonl:hypnosis has odious connotations.
Scotto Moore:so do psychedelics in most circles.
mguess:Hypnosis has loaded connotations to most folks
Blake Williams:mguess, by specific area one at a time, would that be changing some small habit?
jonl:I'm writing a piece about cyborganics, community, and global mind at the moment...
yara:i like the how are the four self - reinforcing idea better
jonl:All realted stuff.
mguess:Yes, Blake
Scotto Moore:i'm not sure what reinforces what, jonl, in my opinion the most useful tool for community reinforcement and metaprogramming is the flow of communication, no more, no less.
jonl:And how is communication facilitated?
jonl:I mean, communication is HARD.
mguess:Communication isn't HARD, it HAPPENS. Quality comm is HARD
jonl:But Michael, I think that communication without 'quality' is failed communication, or no communication, don't you?
Scotto Moore:again, facilitation depends, *depends* on the context you've created and its parameters. it doesn't HAPPEN in a vacuum.
yara:it can be hard, but if it's viewed as part of "metaprogramming", ir became more of an educational tool, a way to reinforce the community - perpetually bouncing ideas off someone
jonl:...and even when there's conflict, if the context is right, it is useful communication?
mguess:It's about vision & results
yara:yes
Scotto Moore:seems to be the case.
jonl:what's the source of the vision?
mguess:Jonl, you can't NOT communicate. You intentions & the results are what matter as far as "quality" is concerned
jonl:or what DRIVES the vision?
Scotto Moore:the members of the community. what else is going to drive?
Scotto Moore:i personally have a vision of what I want to see from leri.
jonl:We're defining communication differently, Michael.
Scotto Moore:so do 50 other people.
jonl:I think.
yara:so do i
mguess:Perhaps, Jon
jonl:How do you sync the individual visions?
yara:and my vision is different from his, but there are elements of it we share
Scotto Moore:in the negotation of those differing ideas, the context is created
jonl:negotiation is the focus of the list?
jonl:or meta - negotiation?
mguess:By starting @ a meta level where the greatest agreement is present & working down from there
Scotto Moore:leri is inherently a self - organizing situation. there's no one "in charge," no one "steering" it. jonl:Right.
yara:and negotiation isn't the focus... it happens as we're communicating other ideas
jonl:And given that, what happens when divergent visions appear? Do some folks just break away?
Scotto Moore:there's definitely an ebb and flow of members through the community, for various reasons mguess:Most of us have our little "universe" of what Leri is about. To the extent it all overlaps we agree
jonl:I guess the negotiation is more woven into the context then?
Blake Williams:I
mguess:Frame of reference can be a moving target
Dan97:Well folks, this beats regular town chat, but I must say bye now and head off to pump some iron and expand my corporeal self in real space. Love those endorphins.
Scotto Moore:cya dan...
jonl:adios, Dan!
Blake Williams:I'm trying to imagine to what extent metaprogrammers (who realize tunnel - realities to be limiting) must agree... I don't think they have to agree on much.
Scotto Moore:they don't, as it turns out. metaprogramming is inherently a solitary experience, even if you do use others to bounce ideas and gather input.
mguess:Right, Blake. At least until they work down to a very detailed level
jonl:Well, it's interesting. Governance is so difficult in some communities, but much of that difficulty is related to egocentric walls...
Scotto Moore:tolerance is the key, recognition that other realities have equal validity. that's an interesting walk. yara:agreeing is less important, I think, than acknowledging and being able to accept other perspectives
jonl:and those walls are not necessarily products of individual egos.
mguess:A good sense of humor helps
Blake Williams:yah. do you get into detailed levels in flesh meetings or in cyberspace? what would some of those details be?
yara:and people willing to put other egos in check ;)
mguess:The longer you spend communicating w/ someone the more you tend to get into details
Scotto Moore:one example I can think of is our recurring examinations of aesthetic theory.
Scotto Moore:another example I can think of is exploring the community via the notion of "iadics," a common sociological model which Lilly expanded upon somewhat.
jonl:Many virtual communities experience ongoing crises of governance because they lack some of the essentials that leri - l seems to have mastered.
Scotto Moore:governance just doesn't seem to be an issue. influence is one thing, governance is another entirely. jonl:Governance becomes more of an issue when there is contention.
mguess:Don't forget power
Blake Williams:hmm.... aesthetics seems to be very subjective... I could see lots of arbitrary aesthetics. Personal preferences acquired through previous imprints, and experienced aesthetics during times when one is sensitive to imprints.
Scotto Moore:what kind of power do you mean?
Scotto Moore:yes, blake, but those are exactly the kind of murky issues that metaprogrammers can attack, 'comparing notes' so to speak.
Scotto Moore:it's not just aesthetics which is subjective - it's the concept of 'self' in the first place.
Blake Williams:scotto, sounds very therapeutic, and helpful to further self - metaprogramming.
mguess:Referring to your commnet about influence. Power being the naked form of influence
jonl:I'm thinking about a community where there is high affinity and high tolerance, and an emphasis on metaprogramming...
jonl:the Tibetan Buddhist community.
yara:well, I dunno if i'd compare leri to tibetan buddhists... that's kind of a stretch
jonl:Their difficult response to the Chinese imposition of power, force.
jonl:Yara: not really.
mguess:What about comparisons to other earlier utopian communities?
jonl:The parallels seem obvious to me.
yara:ok. i'll rephrase it. I don't feel much like a tibetan buddhist
jonl:What's lacking is the established traditon. jonl:er, tradition.
Blake Williams:jon, would that be like the informationally - isolated Tibetan buddhists... if so Leri seems to have much bigger input data stream.
jonl:Well, you wouldn't have to.
jonl:The parallel is not in the details, but in the more abstract, the broader sense.
jonl:Blake: interesting. Tibetans have jumped feet first into the information stream since their country was invaded.
mguess:Jon, I wonder if there's anything we can learn from previous utopian commnuities that "succeeded"? Scotto Moore:which ones are you thinking of, mguess?
jonl:Well, haven't they all succeeded, in a way?
mguess:I knew you'd ask after I let it go. none, really. Just posing the question
jonl:How do you define success, in this context?
Scotto Moore:survival might be one measure. I dunno.
mguess:Actually, I'm wondering if they had certain qualities that might work for us?
jonl:I'm not sure, scotto. jonl:You can sacrifice a lot in the name of survival.
mguess:Mostly, how to deal w/ individuality versus group consciousness
jonl:You can lose what's essential and good and right in order to survive.
jonl:(I know...'good' and 'right' have no meaning in the postmodern world...heh)
yara:in terms of leri, what would be left?
Scotto Moore:see, I always have an interesting time thinking about "essential" "good" "right." I used to have a specific notion of what was "right" for leri. it got pounded out of me, by leri.ITSELF. I don't know any more, I just keep with it.
Blake Williams:jon, what goal would these other utopian communities want, (besides survival)? I readily imagine non - violent interactions and happy and mentally growing inhabitants.
jonl:Right, but to be successfully nonviolent, you may have to put aside defense of your perimeters, so that you lose community because of the exercise of an essential of the community.
jonl:As for 'good' and 'right,' I'm sort of challenged there, too.
Scotto Moore:'utopian' seems a strong, unrealistic word to me. we use the 'TAZ' model a lot more frequently. jonl:But I can think of a few things that would feed a moral standard or set of principles.
jonl:Tolerance is one.
jonl:Love may be another, if I could figure out what it is.
Scotto Moore:heh.
jonl:I have an affinity with TAZ, with autonomy.
Blake Williams:what does Temporary Autonomous Zone mean for you, scotto. I'm fuzzy on how Hakim Bey defined it, or if he defined it as anything more than "what Hakim Bey wanted"?
jonl:Incidentally, the Zapnet folks were here last week...they're really into autonomy.
jonl:Yeah, and why should it be 'temporary'?
Scotto Moore:i think of a TAZ as a "hidden" zone which floats underneath the surface of any kind of popular culture.
Scotto Moore:'temporary' is an argument against calcification of memes.
mguess:Nature abhors permanance
yara:if it's truly autonomous, it's going to have to perptually adapt itself to being under the surface of changing culture
Scotto Moore:against building up bureaucracy, etc.
Blake Williams:jon, my guess is that any "zone" or social situation extended too long becomes "sick" and "cancerous" and deevolves into a bureacracy.
jonl:the memes are temporary, but ont the autonomy?
jonl:ont = not
yara:even that changes in waves...
Scotto Moore:even the relative definition of autonomy has to change over time. new solutions have to be found. mguess:Living in flux can be tough
yara:sometimes you're more autonomous... sometimes less... sometimes it means different things
mguess:But rewarding
Scotto Moore:living in Leri can be tough. :)
jonl:I feel pretty fluxed up right now.
yara:i think that's more the reason why other online communities have problems
dopeklown:hello out there
jonl:living can be tough.
jonl:heh
Blake Williams:but at least it is living. (...in flux...)
jonl:or flummox
jonl:chuckle.
Blake Williams:what's flummox?
jonl:We're past time to stop, though we can continue as long as you like...
jonl:flummox means 'confuse'
jonl:flummoxed means 'confused'
Scotto Moore:i'm going to bail, jonl. this has been fun, though, thanks for having us!
jonl:thanks for coming!
Blake Williams:wow, that was a fast hour and some for this traveller.
mguess:I gotta go, Jon. I'm typing from my sickbed. Had the flu for a week but didn't want to miss this. Scotto, beena pleasure
jonl:this has been a great discussion...
yara:thanks, jon
Scotto Moore:yeah, mguess, see you round the virtual clubhouse! :)
jonl:'night, Michael...I'll give ya a call!
jonl:thanks, all!
Scotto Moore:ciao for now...
jonl:btw the chat HAS been recorded.
Blake Williams:always looking for more interaction with fellow metaprogrammers, bye.
jonl:see ya next time!